Democracy Uprising
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    • About Mark Engler
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      Trump’s backpedaling shows he’s not invincible

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      A new wave of movements against Trumpism is…

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      Harold Washington’s lessons for taking on a political…

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      Strategy is a Craft

      Book Reviews

      The Pan American

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      The Godfather of Microcredit

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      Four Ways of Looking at an Aztec Eagle

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      Ordinary Outrages

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      No Better Place

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      In God’s Country

      Environment

      Why Wendell Matters

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      Climate Disobedience

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      Farming the Everglades

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      The Winter of the Climate Denier

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      Climate of Change: An “Inside-Outside” Strategy Against Global…

      Environment

      Provoking an American Climate Crisis

      Environment

      The Real “Farmer” Story: So God Made High-Fructose…

      Essays / First Person

      Is Rambo Still A Republican?

      Essays / First Person

      On the Price is Right

      Essays / First Person

      The Last Porto Alegre

      Essays / First Person

      Six Essays About War and About Peace

      Essays / First Person

      Republicans Among Us

      Essays / First Person

      New York Says “No”

      Essays / First Person

      The Sideshow Rebels

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      A Week in New York

      Global Economy

      Meet the Bailout’s New Slush Fund for Corporate…

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      The Seattle Protests Showed That Another World Is…

      Global Economy

      Jeff Bezos Has Enough! It’s Time for a…

      Global Economy

      The Amazon Effect: Sweat, Surveillance, Exploitation

      Global Economy

      The Godfather of Microcredit

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      Capitalism as Catastrophe

      Global Economy

      Immigration Economics: An Interview with Professor Giovanni Peri

      Global Economy

      The World Is Not Flat

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      When Undocumented Activists Infiltrated ICE

      Immigration

      The Children of Intervention

      Immigration

      Immigration Economics: An Interview with Professor Giovanni Peri

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      Science Fiction From Below

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      Four Ways of Looking at an Aztec Eagle

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      Treated Like a Criminal

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      When Sanctuary is Resistance

      Immigration

      The Massive Immigrants Rights Protests of 2006 Are…

      Labor

      This new model for upholding labor law may…

      Labor

      Democrats Won Power in Several States. Will They…

      Labor

      The Case for a Social Distancing Wage

      Labor

      The Seattle Protests Showed That Another World Is…

      Labor

      Reviving the General Strike

      Labor

      Jeff Bezos Has Enough! It’s Time for a…

      Labor

      There’s Still Power in a Strike

      Labor

      The Amazon Effect: Sweat, Surveillance, Exploitation

      Latin America

      How movements can maintain their radical vision while winning…

      Latin America

      The Pan American

      Latin America

      Lessons from the Pledge of Resistance

      Latin America

      The Children of Intervention

      Latin America

      Against Shithole Nationalism

      Latin America

      The Last Porto Alegre

      Latin America

      Kissinger Is Not Our Friend

      Latin America

      Even If You Have Nothing to Hide

      Social Movements

      Could we be entering a ‘movement moment’ against…

      Social Movements

      Trump’s backpedaling shows he’s not invincible

      Social Movements

      It’s going to take multiple strategies to win…

      Social Movements

      A new wave of movements against Trumpism is…

      Social Movements

      How to make sure your disruptive protest helps…

      Social Movements

      Why protests work, even when not everybody likes…

      Social Movements

      Harold Washington’s lessons for taking on a political…

      Social Movements

      Strategy is a Craft

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      In God’s Country

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      Reverend Billy’s Holiday Shopocalypse

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      Toward the “Rights of the Poor”

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      The Pope and the Poor

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      Will the Next Pope Embrace Liberation Theology?

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      Remembering Romero

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      John Paul II’s Economic Ethics

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      Against the God of Free Trade

      U.S. Politics / Elections

      Could we be entering a ‘movement moment’ against…

      U.S. Politics / Elections

      Trump’s backpedaling shows he’s not invincible

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      It’s going to take multiple strategies to win…

      U.S. Politics / Elections

      A new wave of movements against Trumpism is…

      U.S. Politics / Elections

      Harold Washington’s lessons for taking on a political…

      U.S. Politics / Elections

      Strategy is a Craft

      U.S. Politics / Elections

      Think #MeToo didn’t make a real difference? Think…

      U.S. Politics / Elections

      This new model for upholding labor law may…

      War / Militarism

      Does It Make Sense to Protest a President…

      War / Militarism

      Lessons from the Pledge of Resistance

      War / Militarism

      Is Rambo Still A Republican?

      War / Militarism

      War: The Wrong Jobs Program

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      The Ascent of Niall Ferguson

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      Those Who Don’t Count

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      Six Essays About War and About Peace

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      The Dangerous Dignity of War

  • Translations
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      Translations

      Jordlösa kombinerar radikala visioner med praktiska reformer (Swedish)

      Español

      Hacer Que Nuestras Demandas Sean Tanto Orácticas Como…

      Italiano

      C’è più di un modo per colpire il…

      Português

      As reformas não reformistas de André Gorz mostram…

      Español

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      Deutsch

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      Richieste dei movimenti: sia pratiche che visionarie

      Chinese

      泛美洲人 爱德华多·加莱亚诺的世界 (Chinese)

      Arabic

      Abandoning the World Bank (in Arabic)

      Arabic

      The Return of Daniel Ortega (in Arabic)

      Arabic

      Where’s The Jubilee? (in Arabic)

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      The Last Porto Alegre (in Arabic)

      Arabic

      Seattle At Five (in Arabic)

      Arabic

      Is Market Access the Answer to Poverty? (in…

      Arabic

      Mexico’s Democratic Transition Still Incomplete (in Arabic)

      Thai

      Progressive Good Tidings of 2007 (in Thai)

      Thai

      2006: A Global Justice Year in Review (In…

      Thai

      WTO: Best Left For Dead? (In Thai)

      Thai

      Is Market Access the Answer to Poverty? (In…

      Thai

      Bush’s Bad Business Empire (In Thai)

      Thai

      The Last Porto Alegre [Thai]

      Thai

      Globalizers, Neocons, or… ? (in Thai)

      Chinese

      泛美洲人 爱德华多·加莱亚诺的世界 (Chinese)

      Chinese

      Why Wendell Matters (in Chinese)

      Chinese

      Globalization’s Watchdogs (in Chinese)

      Deutsch

      Die nicht-reformistischen Reformen von André Gorz

      Deutsch

      Als Martin Luther King seine Feuerwaffen aufgab

      Deutsch

      Mikrokredite: Die Entlassung eines Nobelpreisträgers

      Deutsch

      CAFTA – am besten stillschweigend beerdigen

      Deutsch

      Bush in Mexiko

      Deutsch

      Das globale Duell in Evian

      Deutsch

      Die Rückkehr des Daniel Ortega

      Español

      Hacer Que Nuestras Demandas Sean Tanto Orácticas Como…

      Español

      Las reformas no reformistas de André Gorz

      Español

      ¿Adoptará el nuevo papa la teología de la…

      Español

      Wall Street quiere que les estemos agradecidos

      Español

      Si Las Monjas Se Fueran a una Huelga,…

      Español

      ALEC retrocede; a la derecha le da un…

      Español

      ¿ALEC disgustado ante la pérdida de patrocinadores? Se…

      Español

      La vida en la nación prisión

      Français

      La révolution non-violente a-t-elle échoué en Egypte?

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      Le pari risqué du populisme au Pérou

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      Hong Kong Phooey

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      Come il movimento Occupiamo Wall Street si sta…

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      ガンジーはどのように勝利したのか? (Japanese)

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      Revenge of the Combat Cartoonist (Japanese)

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Democracy Uprising

  • About
    • About Mark Engler
    • About Democracy Uprising
  • Books
    • This Is An Uprising
    • How To Rule the World
  • Topics
    • All Book Reviews Environment Essays / First Person Global Economy Immigration Labor Latin America Social Movements Religion U.S. Politics / Elections War / Militarism
      Social Movements

      Could we be entering a ‘movement moment’ against…

      2023-2025

      Trump’s backpedaling shows he’s not invincible

      Blog

      It’s going to take multiple strategies to win…

      U.S. Politics / Elections

      A new wave of movements against Trumpism is…

      Social Movements

      How to make sure your disruptive protest helps…

      Social Movements

      Why protests work, even when not everybody likes…

      Social Movements

      Harold Washington’s lessons for taking on a political…

      Social Movements

      Strategy is a Craft

      Book Reviews

      The Pan American

      Book Reviews

      The Godfather of Microcredit

      Book Reviews

      Capitalism as Catastrophe

      Book Reviews

      Four Ways of Looking at an Aztec Eagle

      Book Reviews

      The Ascent of Niall Ferguson

      Book Reviews

      Ordinary Outrages

      Book Reviews

      No Better Place

      Book Reviews

      In God’s Country

      Environment

      Why Wendell Matters

      Environment

      The Gulf at the Gas Station

      Environment

      Climate Disobedience

      Environment

      Farming the Everglades

      Environment

      The Winter of the Climate Denier

      Environment

      Climate of Change: An “Inside-Outside” Strategy Against Global…

      Environment

      Provoking an American Climate Crisis

      Environment

      The Real “Farmer” Story: So God Made High-Fructose…

      Essays / First Person

      Is Rambo Still A Republican?

      Essays / First Person

      On the Price is Right

      Essays / First Person

      The Last Porto Alegre

      Essays / First Person

      Six Essays About War and About Peace

      Essays / First Person

      Republicans Among Us

      Essays / First Person

      New York Says “No”

      Essays / First Person

      The Sideshow Rebels

      Essays / First Person

      A Week in New York

      Global Economy

      Meet the Bailout’s New Slush Fund for Corporate…

      Global Economy

      The Seattle Protests Showed That Another World Is…

      Global Economy

      Jeff Bezos Has Enough! It’s Time for a…

      Global Economy

      The Amazon Effect: Sweat, Surveillance, Exploitation

      Global Economy

      The Godfather of Microcredit

      Global Economy

      Capitalism as Catastrophe

      Global Economy

      Immigration Economics: An Interview with Professor Giovanni Peri

      Global Economy

      The World Is Not Flat

      Immigration

      When Undocumented Activists Infiltrated ICE

      Immigration

      The Children of Intervention

      Immigration

      Immigration Economics: An Interview with Professor Giovanni Peri

      Immigration

      Science Fiction From Below

      Immigration

      Four Ways of Looking at an Aztec Eagle

      Immigration

      Treated Like a Criminal

      Immigration

      When Sanctuary is Resistance

      Immigration

      The Massive Immigrants Rights Protests of 2006 Are…

      Labor

      This new model for upholding labor law may…

      Labor

      Democrats Won Power in Several States. Will They…

      Labor

      The Case for a Social Distancing Wage

      Labor

      The Seattle Protests Showed That Another World Is…

      Labor

      Reviving the General Strike

      Labor

      Jeff Bezos Has Enough! It’s Time for a…

      Labor

      There’s Still Power in a Strike

      Labor

      The Amazon Effect: Sweat, Surveillance, Exploitation

      Latin America

      How movements can maintain their radical vision while winning…

      Latin America

      The Pan American

      Latin America

      Lessons from the Pledge of Resistance

      Latin America

      The Children of Intervention

      Latin America

      Against Shithole Nationalism

      Latin America

      The Last Porto Alegre

      Latin America

      Kissinger Is Not Our Friend

      Latin America

      Even If You Have Nothing to Hide

      Social Movements

      Could we be entering a ‘movement moment’ against…

      Social Movements

      Trump’s backpedaling shows he’s not invincible

      Social Movements

      It’s going to take multiple strategies to win…

      Social Movements

      A new wave of movements against Trumpism is…

      Social Movements

      How to make sure your disruptive protest helps…

      Social Movements

      Why protests work, even when not everybody likes…

      Social Movements

      Harold Washington’s lessons for taking on a political…

      Social Movements

      Strategy is a Craft

      Religion

      In God’s Country

      Religion

      Reverend Billy’s Holiday Shopocalypse

      Religion

      Toward the “Rights of the Poor”

      Religion

      The Pope and the Poor

      Religion

      Will the Next Pope Embrace Liberation Theology?

      Religion

      Remembering Romero

      Religion

      John Paul II’s Economic Ethics

      Religion

      Against the God of Free Trade

      U.S. Politics / Elections

      Could we be entering a ‘movement moment’ against…

      U.S. Politics / Elections

      Trump’s backpedaling shows he’s not invincible

      U.S. Politics / Elections

      It’s going to take multiple strategies to win…

      U.S. Politics / Elections

      A new wave of movements against Trumpism is…

      U.S. Politics / Elections

      Harold Washington’s lessons for taking on a political…

      U.S. Politics / Elections

      Strategy is a Craft

      U.S. Politics / Elections

      Think #MeToo didn’t make a real difference? Think…

      U.S. Politics / Elections

      This new model for upholding labor law may…

      War / Militarism

      Does It Make Sense to Protest a President…

      War / Militarism

      Lessons from the Pledge of Resistance

      War / Militarism

      Is Rambo Still A Republican?

      War / Militarism

      War: The Wrong Jobs Program

      War / Militarism

      The Ascent of Niall Ferguson

      War / Militarism

      Those Who Don’t Count

      War / Militarism

      Six Essays About War and About Peace

      War / Militarism

      The Dangerous Dignity of War

  • Translations
    • All Arabic Thai Chinese Deutsch Español Français Italiano Japanese Português
      Translations

      Jordlösa kombinerar radikala visioner med praktiska reformer (Swedish)

      Español

      Hacer Que Nuestras Demandas Sean Tanto Orácticas Como…

      Italiano

      C’è più di un modo per colpire il…

      Português

      As reformas não reformistas de André Gorz mostram…

      Español

      Las reformas no reformistas de André Gorz

      Deutsch

      Die nicht-reformistischen Reformen von André Gorz

      Italiano

      Richieste dei movimenti: sia pratiche che visionarie

      Chinese

      泛美洲人 爱德华多·加莱亚诺的世界 (Chinese)

      Arabic

      Abandoning the World Bank (in Arabic)

      Arabic

      The Return of Daniel Ortega (in Arabic)

      Arabic

      Where’s The Jubilee? (in Arabic)

      Arabic

      The Last Porto Alegre (in Arabic)

      Arabic

      Seattle At Five (in Arabic)

      Arabic

      Is Market Access the Answer to Poverty? (in…

      Arabic

      Mexico’s Democratic Transition Still Incomplete (in Arabic)

      Thai

      Progressive Good Tidings of 2007 (in Thai)

      Thai

      2006: A Global Justice Year in Review (In…

      Thai

      WTO: Best Left For Dead? (In Thai)

      Thai

      Is Market Access the Answer to Poverty? (In…

      Thai

      Bush’s Bad Business Empire (In Thai)

      Thai

      The Last Porto Alegre [Thai]

      Thai

      Globalizers, Neocons, or… ? (in Thai)

      Chinese

      泛美洲人 爱德华多·加莱亚诺的世界 (Chinese)

      Chinese

      Why Wendell Matters (in Chinese)

      Chinese

      Globalization’s Watchdogs (in Chinese)

      Deutsch

      Die nicht-reformistischen Reformen von André Gorz

      Deutsch

      Als Martin Luther King seine Feuerwaffen aufgab

      Deutsch

      Mikrokredite: Die Entlassung eines Nobelpreisträgers

      Deutsch

      CAFTA – am besten stillschweigend beerdigen

      Deutsch

      Bush in Mexiko

      Deutsch

      Das globale Duell in Evian

      Deutsch

      Die Rückkehr des Daniel Ortega

      Español

      Hacer Que Nuestras Demandas Sean Tanto Orácticas Como…

      Español

      Las reformas no reformistas de André Gorz

      Español

      ¿Adoptará el nuevo papa la teología de la…

      Español

      Wall Street quiere que les estemos agradecidos

      Español

      Si Las Monjas Se Fueran a una Huelga,…

      Español

      ALEC retrocede; a la derecha le da un…

      Español

      ¿ALEC disgustado ante la pérdida de patrocinadores? Se…

      Español

      La vida en la nación prisión

      Français

      La révolution non-violente a-t-elle échoué en Egypte?

      Français

      Le pari risqué du populisme au Pérou

      Français

      Hong Kong Phooey

      Français

      Bush Nuit Même Aux Compagnies U.S.

      Français

      Le dynamisme du mouvement pour la paix

      Français

      La déroute de l’ALCA dans une Miami en…

      Français

      Ceux qui ne comptent pas

      Français

      La guerre en Irak : une expo des…

      Italiano

      C’è più di un modo per colpire il…

      Italiano

      Richieste dei movimenti: sia pratiche che visionarie

      Italiano

      La strategia di Gandhi per il successo –…

      Italiano

      Le promesse infrante di Obama

      Italiano

      Guantanamo deve sparire

      Italiano

      IL BANK TRANSFER DAY: UN SUCCESSO

      Italiano

      Come il movimento Occupiamo Wall Street si sta…

      Italiano

      Economia tabù

      Japanese

      ガンジーはどのように勝利したのか? (Japanese)

      Japanese

      Truth Versus Superpower (Japanese)

      Japanese

      Bush’s Bad Business Empire (Japanese)

      Japanese

      Revenge of the Combat Cartoonist (Japanese)

      Japanese

      Bush’s Uneasy Mexican Visita (Japanese)

      Japanese

      Mark Twain in Iraq (Japanese)

      Japanese

      Globalization’s “Lost Decade” (Japanese)

      Japanese

      Hawks Say the Damnedest Things (Japanese)

      Português

      As reformas não reformistas de André Gorz mostram…

      Português

      A vida na Nação Prisão

      Português

      Outro pretexto?

      Português

      Imigração tem efeito positivo sobre emprego e salários

      Português

      O império hipotecado

    • Other Translations
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  • Archive
    • 2023-2025
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2009-2010Global EconomyImmigrationLaborU.S. Politics / ElectionsPast FavoritesFrom the Archives

Immigration Economics: An Interview with Professor Giovanni Peri

by Mark Engler September 16, 2010
written by Mark Engler September 16, 2010
Immigration Economics: An Interview with Professor Giovanni Peri

Doesn’t supply and demand dictate that new immigrants will steal jobs and drive down wages for U.S. citizens? A leading immigration economist explains why not.

Published in Foreign Policy In Focus.


Facts or no facts, many people simply do not want to believe that undocumented immigrants coming to this country don’t steal jobs and undermine the American economy. When economic studies come along that challenge their preconceptions, they don’t take kindly to the troublesome conclusions.

Recently, economist Giovanni Peri, an associate professor at the University of California, Davis, and visiting scholar at the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco wrote a paper for the Fed summarizing recent research in immigration economics. Evaluating the data, Peri concluded that, “on net, immigrants expand the U.S. economy’s productive capacity, stimulate investment, and promote specialization that in the long run boosts productivity. Consistent with previous research, there is no evidence that these effects take place at the expense of jobs for workers born in the United States.”

In other words, immigrants aren’t stealing jobs that would otherwise go to native-born U.S. citizens, and in fact they are stimulating the economy in a way that results, on average, in higher wages for U.S. workers.

As the paper’s findings disseminated on political blogs, some commentators reacted negatively and raised criticisms of Peri, believing that his findings contradicted basic economic laws of supply and demand. While a portion of naysayers were not interested in engaging with the economic research—their objections being politically motivated—other readers raised legitimate questions. And even Americans who identify as progressives might wonder if immigration does not threaten unions and undermine standards set by organized labor.

Foreign Policy In Focus senior analyst Mark Engler discussed these topics with Professor Peri, asking him to clarify his findings and respond to some common criticisms.

*  *  *  *  *

Engler: A common objection to your conclusions about immigrants in the U.S. economy is that the findings seem to violate the law of supply and demand. If the supply of low-wage workers in the economy is increasing, why doesn’t that drive down wages?

Peri: People seem to understand the story of supply and demand. What is a little harder to understand is the idea of “complementarity” versus substitution, which is just as basic in economics.

If two workers are completely identical, supply and demand takes effect—just as if you put more corn on the market, the price of corn will decrease. But if you have workers who do jobs that are not the same, and if they specialize in types of tasks that are complementary, this can increase wages and productivity for both.

An extreme example of this would be if you have an engineer and you add a construction worker. With the engineer by himself you’re not going to do much. But with an engineer plus a construction worker, you can build a building. Therefore, the productivity of the engineer goes up a lot. And the wages for both workers increase.

What I try to address in much of my research is how immigrants are really taking jobs that complement the skills of a lot of native workers. And in fact, the inflow of immigrants pushes some of these native workers to take complementary jobs. That can have positive effects. In economics, this story of complementarity is, in its essence, just as simple as the story of demand and supply.

Engler: Nevertheless, many native-born workers don’t see themselves as complementary. They see themselves as threatened, as competing for the same jobs.

Peri: One of the differences between immigrant workers and native-born workers is that the native worker is likely to have a better understanding of the language. This by itself differentiates the tasks that a native worker can do.

Individually, you will have a lot of personal stories of people feeling threatened. But if you look at the data about what types of occupations Americans have taken in the last 40 years, in particular in states where there are lots of immigrants, the trend has been toward native-born Americans taking on the types of occupations that are a more in the line of “construction supervisor” or “taxi dispatcher,” rather than “construction worker” or “taxi driver.” This, on average, has produced gains.

At an individual level, if you were a native-born agricultural worker in California thirty years ago and you’re still picking strawberries today, you might have lost out. But you have to really look hard to find native-born workers still doing these jobs. It’s far more common to see these workers taking jobs a little further up the scale—working, for example, as a farm manager.

The aggregate data shows that the average American worker may have upgraded his or her job because of immigration—that therefore there has been a reward for the native worker.

Engler: I think part of the confusion is that people perceive the economy as having a set, finite number of jobs. When someone new comes in to the economy, the idea is that this person takes away a job from someone else. How would you address this?

Peri: Right. The labor market in the United States is a very dynamic market. Every month, hundreds of thousands of jobs are destroyed and hundreds of thousands are created. Of course, in a recession, you have more of the former. But, in general, when a new worker comes into a dynamic set-up, the presence of more workers creates more opportunities for firms and more opportunities for investment. So the natural effect of more workers in the economy is that more firms are created, more supply is generated, and more workers receive a salary, increasing demand. In equilibrium, the economy expands.

There is no reason in the long run that one more worker would decrease wages. Just look at U.S. employment in the last 40 years. The number of people working has doubled. And wages have also increased 30 or 40 percent.

The question is, How long does it take for an extra worker to generate the needed investment of the firm and to ultimately create demand, so that one extra worker becomes an expansion of the economy and not one less job for a native worker? My analysis indicates that these mechanisms are relatively fast. So even within one or two years, you don’t observe much job loss, but instead, states with more immigration simply expand their economies a little faster. And over four to 10 years, you also observe the extra investment needed so that capital per worker doesn’t change that much and you have a productivity effect.

Engler: But real wages for non-managerial workers in the United States haven’t increased much in the last 30 or 40 years. They’ve been almost stagnant.

Peri: Here you have to distinguish median wage from average wage. The wages of highly educated workers have actually increased quite a bit in the last 30 years. What have done badly are wages for workers at lower levels of education. Economists are trying to understand the reasons why. Two big candidates are the impacts of technology and the impacts of trade and off-shoring.

Some people are also looking at immigration as a possible reason—including me, David Card of Berkeley, Christian Dustmann of University College London, and others. Yet the studies don’t seem to find much of a negative impact of immigration on wages. In fact, some find no impact on employment and a little bit of a positive impact on wages. And the aggregate data shows no impact in terms of displacement.

Engler: Can you comment on the work of George Borjas, a Harvard economist who has argued that immigration does create downward pressure on wages for lower-wage workers. He’s contended that it resulted in a wage decrease of as much as 7.4 percent for the poorest tenth of the workforce between 1980 and 2000.

Peri: Borjas wrote a paper in 2003 that spurred a lot of academic debate. [The statistics have since been contested, but] people in the media often quote the old numbers. The more recent numbers that even Borjas would support suggest that there might be a negative 3 percent wage effect on the least educated workers. But even his work shows a positive effect on intermediate and more-highly educated workers. So even his version is relative; it shows some negative effects and some positive effects.

I have taken issue with some of Borjas’ estimates, saying that he has not adequately taken into account the mechanism of complementarity. He has assumed that native and immigrant workers are perfectly substitutable at lower levels of education. My studies over the past three to four years show that, in fact, native and immigrant workers do take different jobs, do have some different skills, and do specialize in different productive tasks. And this reduces direct competition. If you account for that, you get a very small impact—or no impact—for those at the lowest levels of education.

In my most recent paper, I do an analysis based on an overall average [of wages throughout the workforce]. I don’t decompose the data to assess the impact of immigration on people of different skill levels. In other studies, I did decompose this and looked at distribution. When I did that, my study showed that the biggest benefits of immigration go to intermediate and highly educated workers; however, for the less-educated, it’s essentially a wash, or zero impact.

I’m not alone in my position. David Card and other economists working on this also say that it’s hard to find the negative effect that George Borjas claims. All in all, I don’t dispute his idea that there’s a bigger benefit for the highly educated than for the less-educated. But I would say that immigration does not really create a loss even for the less-educated. It’s more of a wash.

Engler: How would you respond to those who argue that new immigrants undermine unions and job standards created by organized labor?

Peri: I would say that if what your union is defending is a specific job classification, in construction for example, immigration will create some difficulties for you. If you instead focus on protecting the worker, you allow native workers to move into higher-skilled construction jobs that might require more language and communications skills. If your sole focus is on keeping immigrants out, you’re not going to be able to capitalize on the gains of immigration.

Engler: It sounds like one of the points you are making is not so much that new immigrants hurt native workers, but that new immigrants themselves are the ones who end up with lower wages—that they are the ones who end up carrying that burden.

Peri: In some ways, immigrant workers are competing with themselves. Newer waves of workers, to some extent, are making things more difficult for the immigrants who came just before them. But for immigrant workers, the benefit is the big jump in wages they get over what they might have earned in their home countries, even if low by U.S. standards.

Engler: What do you think is the political relevance of your research?

Peri: I know that the issue of immigration stirs strong sentiments. I try to keep my analysis strictly to the economics. I try to look at the data and see what it shows.

Engler: But clearly, given that anti-immigration folks often base their arguments on the idea that immigrants are driving down wages for U.S. citizens, stealing jobs, and harming the economy, your work has implications for the political debate.

Peri: Absolutely. What I see is that when you dispel the argument that immigrants harm the economy, people [who are opposed to greater immigration] move quickly to other arguments. These people say, okay, maybe that’s not true [that new immigrants hurt the economy], but immigrants still increase the risk of terrorism and create a cultural clash. At that point, I emphasize that I am only doing research on one aspect of this issue.

But to the extent that it’s part of the rhetoric of anti-immigrant groups to say, “We know immigrants steal jobs and have a negative economic impact,” I always say that our research shows the contrary. If you poll serious economists who work on this, including George Borjas, they will agree that there is no evidence of big displacement or negative impact on wages. Some will tell you that there is a small negative effect on the bottom 10 percent of American workers, and others will argue that there is no evidence of that. But the consensus is that for the economy as a whole there is a positive effect on productivity, employment, and wages.

Mark Engler

Mark Engler is a writer based in Philadelphia and an editorial board member at Dissent magazine. His latest book, written with Paul Engler, is entitled This Is an Uprising: How Nonviolent Revolt Is Shaping the Twenty-First Century.

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Mark Engler is a writer based in Philadelphia and an editorial board member at Dissent magazine. His latest book, written with Paul Engler, is entitled This Is an Uprising: How Nonviolent Revolt Is Shaping the Twenty-First Century (Nation Books). Mark’s full bio is available here.

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